Comments on: World’s Oldest Christian Church at Armageddon?

By: Richard E

Richard E — Fri, 11 Nov 2005 23:43:16 +0000

I have alwas been a bit bothered by the fact that as Latter Day Saints we have adopted the hymn. Onward Christian Soldiers. with the words. “With the cross of Jesus, going on before”.
To me, one of the main reasons to avoid the use of the cross is because it seems historicaly to be a rallying point for fascist cultisim, wheather on a broad scale or narrow scale. If you think about it, the fish would probably not lend itself well to this kind of feighned or misguided commitment to unity of purpose.

So I am wondering if there are any particularly gifted lyracists out there who could help me with this cause and write words for a hymn with something about a fish.

Perhaps some historical reasearch about the sentiments associated with the fish would be worth considireing. My understanding from Non LDS sources is that it was used as a code for meeting places in the catacombs and so forth which had a meaning not yet know to the persecutors.

If you think about it. the two symbols are on apposite extremes. one is used in a kind of vengefull manner, and the other as a symbol of intelectual embarassemnt for those who are forced to turn to persecution for lack of a logical responce.

Finaly, I think the sign of the dove and the sign of fish would make for better art. – we remeber Jesus by partaking of bread and wine. I wonder if the fact that he multiplied bread and fish in a miracle that paralles mutilpying bead in the Book of Mormon in possible connection to the sacrament could men anything.

Richard E.

By: john fowles

john fowles — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:51:11 +0000

I also think that is a good point, Brock. Definitely something to think about. having said that, though, I still think the fish makes a very meaningful symbol, since it is an acronymn with an embedded statement of faith.

By: Ronan

Ronan — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 13:23:31 +0000

Actually, Brock’s point is a good one. Crucifixion ceased as a WIDESPREAD method of execution around the 4th century.

By: J. Stapley

J. Stapley — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 04:32:56 +0000

Many christians were crucified in Japan in the 16th century. More recently a Mormon was crucified in South Africa by a satanist this month. It seems to me that most instances after the christian adoption of the symbol are intended to have religious ramificaitons.

By: FoT

FoT — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 04:01:53 +0000

I don’t believe that those who began to first use the cross as the symbol of Christianity intended to bring to rememberance a device of torture and death.

I believe that they understood the cross to be (rather than the Garden of Gethemane) the location where Christ performed his salvation of mankind. This combined with the edict to “take up your cross” were the likely origins for the use of this symbol.

As for the end of its use–I question whether it ever did end. I would venture a guess that somewhere in the world today, people are still using this horible form of capital punishment–scary as that might be.

By: brock

brock — Wed, 09 Nov 2005 03:39:59 +0000

so, my question for those of you who know loads more than i do, is at what point did crucifixion cease to be common practice? it seems unlikely that you would want to use a common torture device as the symbol of your new church and that as it falls out of use it would take on a more holy connotation.